tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post1150662439450251318..comments2023-10-26T01:36:06.267-07:00Comments on DosMan Drivel: Is DOS a Rip-Off of CP/M?Tim Patersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10420105718052222890noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-90855276370598853062022-10-22T22:25:23.260-07:002022-10-22T22:25:23.260-07:00"Somebody was saying that IBM Germany develop..."Somebody was saying that IBM Germany developed it in the 70s. Sheesh!"<br /><br />IBM did develop BOS, TOS, DOS/360 in the 60s. And they had promoted the OS meme.HATAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11181111119360478941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-40472224284520042332022-10-22T21:20:57.286-07:002022-10-22T21:20:57.286-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.HATAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11181111119360478941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-62991962376822268922018-01-28T02:31:29.238-08:002018-01-28T02:31:29.238-08:00An API is just a way of securing specific points i...An API is just a way of securing specific points in a system as a reference to pass information in a specific manner.<br /><br />That said MSX-DOS v1 is 100% CP/M compatible, running on 8 bit Z80 (nah 8080), and that is 100% based on MS-DOS sources.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, a 8086 DOS program compile with 16bit compatible 8080 mnemonics can execute on MS-DOS<br /><br />If I understand Bill Gates of the time, it would have made sense that any newly acquired OS for the IBM PC should easily run software originally written for CP/M use.<br /><br />Unless Gate specifically asked Paterson to provide a 16bit CP/M compatible OS, I think it was pure luck QDOS was around when Bill needed it for the unreleased IBM PC as its agreed OS.<br /><br />There _may_ have been collusion on IBM's part, considering they had already been turned down by DRI as its main OS. Hell its possible that they even asked Bill to provide an OS that was able to run CP/M software, and not that famous idea he just offered to provide an OS, as it was behind closed doors after all.<br /><br />Who know, moot question, and in the end Caldera vs Microsoft was NOT over CP/M compatibility ...<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Paulpaulwratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368366391648508913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-91260332896809920932017-10-02T12:30:09.804-07:002017-10-02T12:30:09.804-07:00SOLO QUIERO MANIFESTAR MI ADMIRACIÓN POR QUE HOY M...SOLO QUIERO MANIFESTAR MI ADMIRACIÓN POR QUE HOY ME DI CUENTA QUE NO FUE Bill Gates SI NO Tim Paterson QUIEN ESCRIBIÓ EL SISTEMA OPERATIVO DOS<br /><br />MUCHAS GRACIAS POR TODA ESA GENIALIDAD<br /><br />Att Gabriel Gomez Resterpo<br />gabriel7012@gmail.comAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669824836820511677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-7172957496624737192016-07-04T01:18:31.540-07:002016-07-04T01:18:31.540-07:00I suppose you are right, given the Oracle vs. Goog...I suppose you are right, given the Oracle vs. Google case that concluded APIs are not in fact copyrightable.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00331449023011247899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-42524464354770943342015-07-24T13:39:19.216-07:002015-07-24T13:39:19.216-07:00No, I guess I was wrong. WordStar 3.0 for MS-DOS w...No, I guess I was wrong. WordStar 3.0 for MS-DOS was ported from the CP/M-86 version, not directly from the CP/M-80 version.<br />Danny S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17689124750985981196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-14066724964960088392015-07-24T11:10:15.756-07:002015-07-24T11:10:15.756-07:00I'm pretty sure that the first version of Word...I'm pretty sure that the first version of WordStar for the PC did use the automated translation facility. But they followed it up very quickly with a second version that took advantage of the PC's memory-mapped video to speed up output, and therefore didn't use the translation procedure.Danny S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17689124750985981196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-90187437517908103682014-10-02T01:36:27.305-07:002014-10-02T01:36:27.305-07:00@Snurrberget: Yes, that would be part of reimpleme...@Snurrberget: Yes, that would be part of reimplementing the CP/M API in DOS, as the author has explicitly said he did. All you need for that is the programming manual. This is *not* the same thing as copying the code. It doesn't even require looking at the code. It is just implementing application compatibility with a competing system, which is not prohibited by copyright (as also shown by the fact that SCO has since lost its copyright case against Linux, which also does nothing but reimplement the UNIX API in a new system).Martijnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01017721606427896018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-13733067950063326252014-09-21T10:33:35.697-07:002014-09-21T10:33:35.697-07:00"There is no suggestion that I copied any CP/..."There is no suggestion that I copied any CP/M code when I wrote DOS. (To this day, I have never seen any CP/M code.) "<br /><br />If you compare the first 40 DOS INT21H services with the CP/M BDOS services, the similarity between service number and function is striking.<br />Offcourse this could be a coincident, who am i to judge.<br /><br />MSDOS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS_API#DOS_INT_21h_services<br /><br />CP/M: http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/bdos.htmlSnurrbergethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06895783608013982101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-30131419229921284762013-06-28T10:16:07.445-07:002013-06-28T10:16:07.445-07:00so basicaly u are the one who created dos thats no...so basicaly u are the one who created dos thats not fare you created and bill eat money <br />sir i am great fan of yours sir i have an idea for us pls sir if you are ready to work with me then contact me, i have brilliant ideas and i am low programmer thats why want u sir we can make sums of money, <br />contact me:<br />mayurtherockstar@live.co.ukAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12922654599786539591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-24214569669801787662012-12-09T02:05:43.303-08:002012-12-09T02:05:43.303-08:00MsDos got an important life extension with the int...MsDos got an important life extension with the introduction of the IBM AT. <br /><br />The IBM AT would boot with the words "AT Multiuser System" on the screen. Ever wonder what that meant? Digital Research was implementing a multiuser CP/M to run on the 286 chip. The intended design was to allow a AT to have multi-port serial boards with users using serial terminals to access the system.<br /><br />So what happened to that OS? Concurrent Dos, as it was named later, did find use in many systems. But the full-scale public release as a shipping component of the AT never happened. The way Gary and other DR staff explained it to me, there was a change in the 286 chip that caused multitasking bugs. The change in the chip was intended to improve yields, but had unintended results.<br /><br />IBM could have pressed Intel to fix the problem with the chip, but that problem got the IBM management thinking. IBM is managed by the sales department. So the people calling the shots are vary focused on sales, and not on engineering. In doing some analysis on the impact to sales, the question of "how many AT's will we sell?" is a basic foundation for the decision process. So think about it, do you put one AT in an office, and have 16 people connected to it with Wyse terminals? Or do you sell the same office 16 PC's? Which would make more money?<br /><br />Concurrent Dos failed to be shipped with the system that was designed to run it, because IBM decided they could sell more computers if they didn't ship the AT with it's intended multiuser system.<br /><br />It was a sad day for the indistry, dos based desktop computing would have had a new set of capabilities had IBM not killed the AT Multiuser System. This was not the first time IBM decided to compromise the design of the PC... but it may well have been the last time. The AT was the last important contribution to the PC line. Clone makers took over after that, with few of IBM's later designs getting enough traction to make a difference. Sure many parts of IBM's later designs were used in other systems, but none of their later systems, such as the PS2, had much impact.<br /><br />But the lost multiuser capabilities were in UNIX and big-iron systems, so the concurrent multiuser PC was only delayed. But I wager that Microsoft might have had less money to spend on launching Windows if they had lost the AT market to the multiuser system. That system could have shifted the money from Bill Gates to Gary Kildall.<br /><br />I was employed by Gary in the late 1980's and early 1990's. I was his hardware designer for the Intelliphone, a smartphone platform who's touch-screen prototypes resembled today's iPhone. During the time I was designing the Intelliphone hardware, DR Dos was the hottest thing going. Windows ran better on DR Dos than MsDos, because the built-in memory manager provided more usable memory to Windows. To shut that down, Microsoft changed Windows to detect the underlying OS, and to through up a fake blue-screen if it detected DR Dos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-62122445287422822062012-07-19T07:13:32.330-07:002012-07-19T07:13:32.330-07:00Great story, thanks! I've got a question. You ...Great story, thanks! I've got a question. You wrote:<br /><br />« If tiny Seattle Computer Products had been sued by Digital Research back when DOS was new, I’m sure we would have caved instead of fighting it. I would have changed DOS so the API details were nothing like CP/M, and translation compatibility would have been lost. But in the end that would have made absolutely no difference. No one ever used or cared about translation compatibility. I had been wrong to think it was a valuable feature. »<br /><br />Why didn't people care about translation compatibility? Implementing a widely targeted API seems like a smart thing to do. Programmers could have quickly ported their applications to QDOS. Customers might have thought that this would guarantee an ample supply of software. So why didn't the idea catch on? Because back then programs were written also to the hardware, not only to the OS?milu71https://www.blogger.com/profile/08947917172718184249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-43625302509084961852011-08-30T06:50:45.763-07:002011-08-30T06:50:45.763-07:00Useful article! I have some limited CP/M experienc...Useful article! I have some limited CP/M experience. Also, I wrote my own DOS emulator for Linux (called DOSRUN) using vm86 sycall of the Linux kernel, and writing my own implementation of DOS interrupts, and some structures, coded in C. I realized that DOS seems to be a mixture of CP/M and UNIX ideas, structures ("API"), but I never knew what was the reason. Now I know that there was some kind of goals that one can port/translate/etc programs under DOS more easily. Thanks for the information!LGBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04820526370036466739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-49707881057701769562011-01-07T16:58:46.898-08:002011-01-07T16:58:46.898-08:00Just wanted to say thanks for taking all your time...Just wanted to say thanks for taking all your time in writing this as it made a very interesting read on finding about the history and origins of DOS.<br /><br />I also wanted to say it would also be quite interesting if you ever decide to continue on with it but maybe in a book of some sorts.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05781652389794828660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-49634622283731858932010-06-03T07:19:47.693-07:002010-06-03T07:19:47.693-07:00Nice to see that the original QDOS person is clari...Nice to see that the original QDOS person is clarifying things...Even if one accepts Patersens claim that no Assembler code was actually copied from CP/M, only APIs were referred to, one can still see that without the pioneering work of Kildall on CP/M, there would not have been any DOS in the form we know today. There would have been other OSs just like Apple etc. Many universities were playing with microprocessor code that time... many tried OS-type code... But undoubtedly Gary Kildall was the pioneer. <br /><br />Kildall could have fought back .. on his own ...He could have given DR-DOS free... Even early 90s was not late... but it was not to be!!!The Observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00673455792816557761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-53763796546846608142009-11-03T05:36:23.132-08:002009-11-03T05:36:23.132-08:00This guy "Alessio Di domizio" in this ar...This guy "Alessio Di domizio" in this article<br />http://www.appuntidigitali.it/3070/gary-kildall-il-vero-padre-del-dos/<br /><br />say that (please see comment number 23)<br /><br />QDOS ha copiato illegalmente il *sorgente* di CP/M ,non l’interfaccia.<br /><br />In english<br /><br />QDOS has copied integrally *the souce code* of CP/M, not the interface.<br /><br />This is real?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-86646547337855693952009-08-16T00:28:07.338-07:002009-08-16T00:28:07.338-07:00This info is certainly questionable, and unreliabl...This info is certainly questionable, and unreliable. I can tell you this since my old boss, Pat Martini of CCT (in business 1976-2000), actually obtained early CP/M code, licensed from Kildall. It was later used to write a small proprietary operating system to run on Gordon Moore's 8085 CPU for a large government military contract, among other proprietary projects.<br /><br />It is said that Martini actually wrote (rewrote/implemented) the first 16 CP/M operating system calls - the low level hardware controls, way back in the very early days of DRI. Note that, contrary to many non-verified claims, MS-DOS has and still does contain the same 0h-0Fh calls!<br /><br />CCT's later Concurrent DOS 86 operating system, from other Kildall licensed code, was rewritten originally for S-100 bus systems as part of a huge government contract, and later ported again for use on the very large VME bus systems in the mid 1980's, for a Pentagon 'top secret' Central American incursion.<br /><br />(Later side note): It is interesting and somewhat amusing to note that the above systems somehow found their way into the motor vehicle department of a large Central American capital city and were still in use as of the early 1990's!<br /><br />All of the above used Digital Research based operating system technology licensed from Gary Kildall, a long time friend of Martini. Check out Byte magazines from the early to mid 1980's to see the huge CCT multi-page centerfold ads.<br /><br />Note that CCT did all that for over 25 years using several iterations and reiterations of Gary Kildall's CP/M operating system! Additional CCT information is difficult to locate, however, probably because of all of the top secret government contracts and legal problems and that followed during the late 1980's.<br /><br />I heard a while ago that Martini is still around doing new computer things with much more modern hardware and operating systems! He relinquished all of his DRI licensing to a third party in the early 1990's. That included CCT's rewritten ANSI standard version of Gary's original 16bit C compiler - this was under a single proprietary license granted exclusively to Martini/CCT as the sole owner!<br /><br />Cool history! J. Loggins, former CCT Director of Hardware Operations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-9163715349015131272008-06-28T19:10:00.000-07:002008-06-28T19:10:00.000-07:00Now we've got a BBC talking point in Bill Gates' l...Now we've got a BBC talking point in Bill Gates' legacy, and the Eurofools on said board cannot even get the origin of DOS down pat. Somebody was saying that IBM Germany developed it in the 70s. Sheesh!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-33232350807898406002008-04-16T13:00:00.000-07:002008-04-16T13:00:00.000-07:00"Not even Intel could provide me with an 8086 asse..."Not even Intel could provide me with an 8086 assembler to do the most basic programming, so I wrote one myself. It was actually a Z80 program that ran under CP/M, but it generated 8086 code."<BR/><BR/>This might make it kinda like a cross assembler :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-5053614299442212432007-12-16T17:31:00.000-08:002007-12-16T17:31:00.000-08:00What was the nature of your relationship with Bill...What was the nature of your relationship with Bill Gates?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-48420382564503770932007-11-05T15:07:00.000-08:002007-11-05T15:07:00.000-08:00Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I....Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-46713444369572061972007-08-17T06:15:00.000-07:002007-08-17T06:15:00.000-07:00Wow. Well, it shows that it pays to really find o...Wow. Well, it shows that it pays to really find out whether a given feature is worth putting in. This is amazing stuff at least to us geeks...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876472745480454285.post-20456226472594113362007-08-12T23:59:00.000-07:002007-08-12T23:59:00.000-07:00Tim, this is great stuff. Now that the suit is beh...Tim, this is great stuff. Now that the suit is behind you perhaps you could post some more interesting historical tidbits about the early days of DOS.Jeff Barrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09452790686065700963noreply@blogger.com